figuring various things out...mostly what to eat.

Sigh...Leila, that is why I prefaced my comment with "very respectfully".

As all of us on blogs, I can only respond to comments posted and cannot know the entire inner life of the person posting it. It did seem to me that you were advocating for taking the life of an animal, if humanely raised. And I disagree with that, no matter the background of the person posting it. But, the disagreement is a jumping off point for discussion and not a slap-down as it seems you took it.

I don't think anyone on this blog could be accused of "disregarding animal life". Simply by being here, these blog readers respect animal life and I think we all like bouncing our different ideas off each other as we explore our evolving relationships with other animals. I enjoy the conversations and discussions on the complexities and nuances of this but sometimes our words can come across in ways we don't anticipate.

So, I apologize if you were personally offended by my comment. That was not my intent.

if that is true then i bet the next top dog species will be......cats.
scrappy could one day be king of the world and the food sources better hide themselves pretty damn quickly too!

the final solution could be that humans will become extinct (maybe we will eat ourselves out of existence) and another species will replace us as top/explotive species.

one of the nurses i work with has gone totally vegan in her eating habits..not because of animal issues but because of health issues. her son is an athelete and shared a bunch of books with her...the china something...hmm...the skinny bitch..i can't really remember the names of the books. anyway..she is basically just eating raw fruits and vegetables..NO grains..NO soy products...raw nuts have to be soaked for half a day to remove some kind of harmful enzyme from them..it is so complex...all the reasons why you can't eat anything and the solution for is simple (and boring!)...just straight raw fruits and veggies.

i think we all in the end will try to make decisions of how and what we eat the best way that we can...and it might be different for each of us.

i get confused when i look at the natural world where the squirrel eats nuts, the cat eats squirrel, the coyote eats cat, coyote gets shot by a human for eating the cat....no one cares if he eats the squirrel and the squirrel was the innocent one who only ate nuts. i do believe that nature itself is not only life and death brutal but has survived and evolved because of the available food chains. and i am not confident that humans will ever fully evolve into a vegan society. if we do..that means the species end of cows, sheep, pigs and chickens that we have bred for food or clothing because those animals would not have any further use. i would be sad at a world without these animals...but i don't want to hurt them every day of their lives and in their ultimate deaths either.

i think it might be ok for a lion to eat an antelope, and maybe even a human to eat a cow..but it has to be without the mass murdering brutality and violence and commercial farming and slaughtering torture that we currently practice...why can't the cow live a happy and peaceful life until the day that he dies..it is what an antelope gets in nature..he gets to live his life doing what antelopes do until the lioness brings him down to feed herself and her pride.

can a cow exist if his purpose is different than an antelope? probably not because if we don't need them, we will make sure they don't exist to eat up our grains and grass.

there is just so many issues inside of issues..it is hard finding the simple solution of one right way in it...whichever way we go..there will be ripples in the ponds of these animals lives and futures...it is the ripple effect i am worried about...will we ripple cows and pigs right out of existence eventually....is there not another way to live with and share this earth with them more respectfully?

i don't know.

Marissa, I have been a vegetarian since I was 14 years old . that was in 1974 when there was no such thing as not using meat products in every little thing out there. I couldn't even eat a store bought cookie. the only reason I didn't go vegan then was because my mom wouldn't let me. The reason why I don't eat any meat which includes All' animals is because if I had to kill one to eat it, I couldn't so I thought it was wrong for me to eat meat if I couldn't follow the act of procuring my own food All' the way through. That was a decision I made for myself not the world - just myself. I was
trying to give Carol a perspective she could live with.

I have never in my life thought that animals of any kind, including humans simply exist to fit my needs. My family and friends used to make fun of me because I don't distinguish between animals and people. But Carol knows that about me as she knows me personally not through the Internet. This is the first time I have ever been accused of disregarding animal life but I guess there is a first for everything.

And yes your quote is right eating too much animal products is very unhealthy for you. People eat way too much meat and not enough of grains, fruits and vegetable. It is a good balance that keeps us optimally healthy.

there is no need to apologize marisa....there are so many layers and perspectives to this one issue. it is the thinking and talking about it over and over again that will in the end spell positive change for animals exploited by human beings. maybe the exploitation will continue past our lifetimes..but i hope we can do something about the disrespect and rampant brutality in that exploitation of them in my lifetime.

OK...very respectfully (because I understand this is not a forum for this type of debate) I have to respond to Leila's comment. And this is ONLY because I spend my life advocating for "food" animals so I have to stick up for them whenever I can.

Even if you buy meat from the most wonderful farmer in the world, you have still taken the life of that animal when you didn't need to. And that animal, like you and I, would have much preferred to see Spring, feel sun on his face and live a long, full life. Humans don't have a monopoly on right to life. We just think we do.

I think Gary Francione gets at the nub of this matter the best:
"Nobody, not even the United States government, the prime disseminator of disinformation in the universe maintains that you need to eat meat to lead an optimally healthy lifestyle. Indeed, an increasing number of…mainstream health care people are maintaining that the more animal products you eat the more danger you have to your health. Bottom line is the best justification we have for inflicting suffering, pain and death on 9 billion creatures every single year is “They taste good”."

So, killing is killing, whether the animal is hugged and nicely petted before he gets his throat slit or whether he's brutally beaten and hung from a rail. I just think, if omnivorous aliens landed on the planet and they enjoyed human as their meat of choice but didn't have to eat it, what would I want above all else? For most of those aliens to PLEASE just leave me and my family alone and eat some roots and berries instead.

So, I truly commend you Carol for giving up meat along with all the other BAJILLION actions you do everyday for animals. But, I just don't want people to ever forget that there are real, valuable, no-less-important than human lives at stake in all these issues. They don't simply exist for our needs.

Sorry - truly don't want to set off a heated debate because I have such great respect for everyone on this forum but sometimes, at the risk of being unpopular with humans, I feel it's imperative to speak up for the oft-forgotten "food" animals.

the reason i decided on having the occasional fish is because while we still do kill them and probably inhumanely..not too many people get their jolly's out of beating the shit out of a fish because it is afraid and doesn't understand what it is supposed to do...it was the meat animals (cows, pigs and chickens) getting beaten before death for no real reason except the violent brutality of those humans with wrenches and tire irons in that video..the fish were just being killed.

Carol, humans as an animal, are omnivores. We are built to each meat and non meat items. Archaeological records from millions years back have shown that we survive the best as omnivores (any off shoot that was strictly grain/veg. eating phased out). I am not aware of any prehistoric humans that were just meat eaters. I am sure if they were, they werre phased out too.

I know that I am constantly on the border line of being anemica and I have tried several times to donate blood but my blood is always low on iron. I think someone who ate just meat (okay there are some people who eat just meat) would have issues with having a healthy heart.

It is very hard to eat a non meat diet as you really need to change your taste bud and the way you cook. Most non meat food compliments the meat/fish/fowl on the table and on its own isn't so great. Many people who go vegan/vegatarian try to find subsitutes to meat which is a mistake. The vegetables have to become the vocal point which means you can't cook them the way you would if you were a meat eater. And, yes you are right, you have to have time to cook to be able to change your eating habits which you do not have time for.

Making ethical choices like getting your eggs from a farm where the chickens are treated humanely and getting your meat from a farm where animals are given a good life is a good choice. You are not adding the mistreatment of other species.

Remember that a huge variety of non human species eat meat and we are just part of that "circle of life". So don't bonk yourself over the head trying to do something you can't (change your taste buds). Personally I think you would be better off eating meat from a BCSPCA certified farmer than eating fish once in awhile. People are very dismissive of fish because they have no expressions that we can understand.

Just remember to ask the free-range places what they do with the male chicks once they are born. Usually they're killed immediately since they are useless to the egg industry. But, at least, they may be killed more humanely in certain places than others.

Carol, you do so much for animals, I think you can give yourself a break on this. It's important that you're aware of the issues and that you're able to educate others on them but if you're a bit flexible in what you eat, so be it. Not many people are having to run a sanctuary and change their diet at the same time! The important thing is you're making changes a little bit at a time and I bet you're influencing a lot of other people in the SAINTS circle as well. The wonderful thing about compassion is that it radiates from its source, touching more hearts as it continually ripples outwards creating a more humane and caring world.

Carol - You're doing a great job. Do you like soy based meatless products? Most of the larget grocery stores carry tasty foods. I am always trying new soy based meatless products, especially from across the border and i am amazed at the variety of substitutes for: bbq ribs, chicken breasts, meatballs, deli slices, hot dogs, ground beef/chicken/turkey, beef tips, hot wings, burgers, chicken / beef strips etc. A lot of Indian food like lentil curries are completely vegan.

Carol - I buy SPCA Certified Rabbit River eggs, and am comfortable with supporting them. The chickens get inside and outside time, and can hang out together, scratch in the dirt, use nest boxes, and roost on perches. Plus, I work with the people that run the SPCA Certified program and can ask them all the hard-hitting questions I like. :)

Glad to hear you are going to be a "responsible flexitarian" - you're right - You have enough to worry about, other than what you can put in your mouth that's easy and quick. Your health is essential to the welfare of SAINTS, so look after yourself. Under the circumstances, I think you do extrememly well. Your integrity is intact and strong.