so i took an informal poll today....

I've been lucky too and I've told phoebe off a couple of times. maybe my not knowing all about her moods saved me. lol and i had a lot of practice with my lab who was like that when she was younger. She is much better now but the bad one can surface any time --I'm always watching. It is really hard to live with a dog like that but we do what we can. I'm committed to her -- some of my family says i should be committed lol

Poor Larry.... aint nothin gunna breaka his stride!!!

It's funny... I should say interesting, not funny... reading all about Pheobe because as a new volunteer, I've only had the pleasure of meeting the friendly, innocent version... but I'm sure it is only a matter of time until Mrs. Hyde comes out in my presence!! (Hopefully later than sooner!)

Get well soon, Larry!!

Bah. I think the dude on tv has little clue what he's talking about.
http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/images/stories/Position_Statements/dominance%20statement.pdf

For a video explaining the same stuff:

DOMINANCE DEBUNKED-Myths & Realities of Training Dogs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEXQsYEaYcI&feature=related

Carol - I'm not sure you can behaviourally moderate this type of dog into 'niceness' per se but I do think that she could be taught lots of other opportunities to express herself in other ways, as well as having her environment managed to prevent triggers. I think Pam Dennison's How to Right a Dog Gone Wrong is a good guide to this sort of thing:
http://www.dogwise.com/ItemDetails.cfm?ID=DTB850&AffiliateID=45140&Method=3

there is no doubt that phoebe needs a whole lot of things not available to her with me. but the problem is 2 fold..i will not just send her out to anyone..if i ever do send phebers out, it will be only to someone that i trust 100%implicitly to stand by her and see her thru...for the rest of her life if needed. and 2..the few people who are capable of caring for her...are either not available or really don't want to take her on cuz she really is not an easy fix here and they know that quite well.

there are dogs out there, just like people, who are not always very nice...can you behaviorally moderate them into niceness all of the time?...i am not sure that this is always possible.
phoebe is not a crazy dog...she is not even a broken dog..she is just occasionally a very bitchy dog...paris hilton would be phoebe's idol.

From everything that is being said here (and not knowing phoebe) it seems as though she has a problem no one can see. She thinks that everyone working at SAINTS or living there is part of her pack, a pack she is clearly in charge of. She has the aggression issues and weird outbursts of anger because no one is telling her how to behave, therefor she does what she wants. I think some of what the dog whisperer has to offer is true and has worked with so many dogs just like Phoebe.

"Dogs can become aggressive out of frustration and dominance. The frustration comes from a lack of exercise, and the dominance comes from a lack of calm-assertive leadership

When dealing with red zone dogs, I start by working with the owners, explaining how to establish themselves as pack leaders and to understand the animal in their dog. This is a crucial part of rehabilitating your dog: changing your behavior. If you revert to your old ways, so will your dog.

For many of these dogs, it is a lack of adequate exercise that is the root of the problem. Physical activity burns the dog's excess energy and helps maintain his healthy state of mind. This is important because, in order to talk to the mind, you need to remove the energy from the body."

I can tell that you really care about her Carol, because Im sure she wouldn't still be there if you didn't. Perhaps she just needs a different type of help....

I hope everything works out with her

http://cheezburger.com/View/3780722432

Muzzle? http://leerburg.com/muzzleselection.htm

The police style leather one?

then the last thing west needs is phoebe terrorizing him! unless he is strong and powerful, she will nail him and he probably would like to keep his ears intact in any case...BC's have great ears.

I agree with Jenn. The wrired in storage area off the main dog/cat area would be a good solution. That "closet" is roomy, open so Phoebe can see what's going on around her, and safe for her. Great idea Carol for when she's unsupervised. Poor Larry!

Courtnay has West right now, an absolutely beautiful BC pup who she is trying to re-hab for TDBCR... West who is apparantly a seriously fearful little boy.

I would not consider that a "closet" it is a storage area with a light and a mesh door. Pheobe will actually like to have her own chair too. I think it is the perfect solution for said hag. You are so smart mom!

it won't come down to the blue juice..i have managed her (successfully at times too!) for more than 5 years..i can do 5 or 10 more. i just like to plan her death on our bad days..it makes me feel better somehow. and her issues are...she sometimes bites people and she sometimes bites dogs..and she bites whoever she decides to bite because she is in a bad mood at the time. she bites not just according to space issues...she bites also over food and she bites if she is frustrated cuz she can't push her way thru to where ever it is she wants to get to. she is hyperactive attention disordered, and she acts impulsively without thinking...(like jumping out of car windows into oncoming traffic)...she works herself up into a frenzy and will bark continuously non stop at times and she absolutely hates to get cold or wet so if either is happening outside...then she is going to pee inside instead.
last week she actually called me over to her to cover her up with her blanket very beechingly...and then she kissed my face to say thank you several times and a split second later, she was snarling full out in my face half a centimeter away.

she has literally chased previous adoptors off of their own beds and out their bedroom doors...altho she would NEVER try that shit with me... she has in fact done it to others who were nicer and kinder than me.

when she bites...it is hard! it is always a stage four bite..right thru the tissue with very deep bruising and blood spurting out and she hangs on to the bite for quite a long time. once she lets go she doesn't go in for the second bite..one seems enough to express her rage and then she snarls and goes away...usually pretty fast too if i am hot on her tail.

with phoebe it is not fear or even real aggression...MOST of the time while incredibly annoying and irritating...she is actually pretty good and DOESN'T bite...but every 6-8weeks she will have a bad 30 seconds and does it again...she is a spoiled and neurotic dog with little or no impulse control and intermittent anger issues that she will act out on once in awhile. she is not dangerous in the sense that she will ever seriously hurt someone in a life threatening way..but she very well may remove finger and ear tips when she is acting out her rage. and she will NEVER go for a dog that could or would kick her ass...she even leaves the cats alone cuz she has been swiped a few good times.

the rest of the time when she is in a good mood...she is cheerful and engaging and even pretty damn cute. it is just that at any time either phoebe could show up..the utter bitch or the sweet little adorable thing.

we should have named her sybil.

I don't know if you remember me, but I'm still seriously in love with Phoebe. I've got a project foster dog at the moment, but if it came down to the blue juice.. contact me and maybe I could find room for her... Not sure what all her issues are, I haven't seen her in a couple years.

hah..yes i can blame her because she is not indiscriminate in whose ears she trims...she ain't never going to try trimming big bambi's...she looks around and then picks her most vulnerable ear victim. 6 weeks ago it was mandy...for a month she has decided to be good until today. if she can not bite for a month or more...she sure as hell did not have to bite larry today.
today, she was simply in a pissy prima donna mood for whatever reason.
THAT is what makes me the most mad...she actually does make choices on how she behaves depending on her mood each day. if that dog is smart enough to make choices..she is smart enough to choose the right choice too.

she will jump both sides and then she will torment the back "we hate dogs" cats.

Phoebe does need some isolation when not supervised. The entrance way was ideal for her, until Jelly came along and needed it more. Then Phebes was put in general population. Unfortunately once in general population the inevitable happens.
There's no question that Phoebe in the mix with everyone will only result in someone getting hurt. This has alway happened so can you really blame her for being who she is.
The others need to be protected from her and she needs to be protected from herself.
The closet, although not the greatest solution, is probably the best one right now.

Could you put a gate across the area between the kitchen & the back cat room and put Phoebe in there? Or could she jump over that? Just a thought.

i think this blog entry is a waaaay better one to start off a book (if there were to be one). too bad you dont get that reprive of "if it doesnt work bring the animal back here". really tho, you couldve said you hadda put her down cause percy or czar accidently kicked her or stepped on her or something and none of us wouldve known the difference, but if something happens to her now...well there may be questions....

as a temporary solution...i actually, seriously want to put her in the closet for now...it is much bigger than any crate so she can have a comfy chair in there with her too...it has a full wire/see thru door into the computer room, and it does have it's own ceiling light fixture too...so it is not like she will be shut in a solid doored dark closet, or a dog sized crate isolated and totally alone..she can still easily see and hear everything that goes on around her, she can move around..up to her chair, down to the floor....and she and the others are totally safe whenever we cannot be watching her.

but even i am hestitant about the back lash that could be caused if folks misinterpet her isolation area and start freaking out that i have a dog in the closet...even if said closet is bigger and more open than a crate...has a full sized wire door and a comfy chair for her to sleep on...still...some folks will think a dog crate is more socially acceptable even if it does suck big time for the dog stuck inside it.

it just may be rescue suicide to put a dog in the closet...even if that dog is phoebe and it is a nicer space for her than an actual crate...and if it is only for times that we can't watch her.

i will probably do it anyway...cuz i actually have a more permanent..but very labour intensive plan...which will cost some cash, which we don't have (and doesn't actually involve nuking her)...but i just want everyone to know that when phoebe hits the closet and the shit hits the fan on this..i was fully aware and did warn myself....but it was really the only viable option besides the big blue needle right now...short of making her live in the shop or the fifth wheel trailer all alone...which she would hate...we just do not have any more single dog real room space...(reggie, and jelly, and perdy have used them all up.)

why does she just have to be such a haggish and difficult dog????

sigh..anyway...until her closet is ready she is in the kitchen alone but that is hard on everyone else cuz they like going in and out of the kitchen and now they can't.....renee can clean the closet out and tomorrow on my lunch break i will find a very nice chair at the second hand store for phoebe our soon to be closet dog i guess.

rescue really sucks...if you happen to rescue freaking phoebe's.

yes phoebe crossed the line when she hurt our Larry :(

put her somewhere where she is alone when she is not able to be supervised... even a crate if needs be. Something like that should never happen to any of the babies, but especially not to larry.

Poor Larry hope he is ok.Phoebe needs a home with no other dogs someone please help. You'd think someone would want that cute dog. Tammy can you take her home?

I do think Pheobe is a serial ear slicer because it was just 3 or so months ago that Suzie's ear was mysteriously bleeding -- it did not have a chunck out if it just a little puncture wound--now I know it was that red hag ans she is not getting any attention or love from me when I see her. I say stick her in the shop!

:-(
Larry is having a bad month...

Oh. No. After reading your first sentence, I was about to scold you for saying such a nasty thing. But then your second line made me very sad because it's no secret that Larry is my favorite. Tammy...you better get to work pointing out some of the finer sides of Phoebes!

Carol, can you post a very real and honest description of what Phoebe needs in an adoptive home and what it would be like to live with her?

And how is my man Larry? As if that happened to him. He's such a peaceful guy...the last one to deserve such a thing.